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Quotable Heinlein Discussion Boards
"The Door Into Summer"
magas  |
Apr-05-03, 03:18 PM (EST)
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"The Door Into Summer" |
Guys,
I read the Door Into Summer a few days back, gratitude goes to Mike, and I was very disturbed by the book's ending. Sure, everyone gets to think a little girl is pretty now and then, but hey, there's (!) limits. I think that the trick about Ricky (?? I've already forgotten the name!) or whatever her name is going into Cold Sleep was not to get the reader too upset. On the other hand, now that I think of it there's To Sail Beyond the Sunset - or is it Time Enough For Love? Haven't read both for a couple of years - where a daughter gets deflowered by...and now that I read F's Freehold (can't spell farnham!) there's Karen talking to Hugh...but that's extreme circumstances, so it may be excusable. Now, I don't pass for a puritan, but is all this necessary except for making a guy queasy? Anyway, I'd like to know how you guys feel about some of the...more explicit stuff.
C.C.
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RE: The Door Into Summer,
SailFree, Apr-05-03, (1)
  RE: The Door Into Summer,
Ray, Apr-06-03, (2)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
C.N.Christidis, Apr-06-03, (3)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
Laddi , Apr-06-03, (4)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
SailFree, Apr-06-03, (5)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
Constantinos Christidis, Apr-07-03, (6)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
Constantinos Christidis, Apr-07-03, (7)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
SailFree, Apr-07-03, (8)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
magas, Apr-08-03, (9)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
magas, Apr-08-03, (10)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
SailFree, Apr-08-03, (11)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
Constantinos Christidis, Apr-09-03, (12)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
SailFree, Apr-09-03, (13)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
Constantinos Christidis, Apr-11-03, (14)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
SailFree, Apr-11-03, (15)
 RE: The Door Into Summer,
Suzela, Apr-13-03, (16)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
Constantinos Christidis, Apr-15-03, (17)
RE: The Door Into Summer,
SailFree, Apr-15-03, (18)
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SailFree |
Apr-05-03, 08:29 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Hi, Constantinos C.,Frederica Virginia Heinecke, sort of an anagram for Virginia Heinlein, of course. I think Heinlein realized that young women can be very attractive and sexual beings. In "I Will Fear No Evil," a 13-yr-old was making eyes at some much older men. In "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress," was there not a teenager, hinted at least, interested in Manny? In the not-so-distant past, marriage in the early teens was common, and not the least reason being that life expectancy wasn't all that long and one had better get busy early propagating the species or it wouldn't get propagated. --Al
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Ray |
Apr-06-03, 09:36 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
I think that RAH wanted the reader to examine the reasons behind a pretty universal taboo. He did the same with religion. In the end the reader is still free to believe in God or get that queasy feeling when thinking about young girls in a less than fatherly way; the point is to analyze a concept which is usually accepted without a thought. The taboo against incest arose because of a bad reinforcement of genes. In a future of perfect birth control, RAH wondered if incest is still wrong. He went so far as to have his young female characters want to participate. Is it still wrong then? I draw the conclusion that it is and I think RAH probably did too. He just wanted us to go beyond surface thinking.Ray
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C.N.Christidis |
Apr-06-03, 12:00 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Al, sure there are 13-year-olds that make your head turn, or have indecent thoughts and stuff, but I'm thinking in terms of "just how much can a 13-year-old be held accountable for its actions?" If it's just sex, well, okay, but if that leads to propagating, well, that's a wholly different thing, as well as living with somebody until death does them part.I should think that 15 - 16 is the right age for a girl to start having relationships with people who are not teenagers themselves, I haven't failed to notice that they usually do so around that age and they mature much faster than their male counterparts, and I would think that it would have been more realistic if RAH went with that and used the "sexy little-girl loves mature old man" more sparingly. I mean, Podkayne's behavior is much more realistic than F.V. Heinecke's...though RAH doesn't go much into that. (She's almost cardboard. Hey! I wrote "almost"!) But there's also the incest stuff, and the group marriage stuff, although that last one is, to some extent, acceptable by today's societies (or rather the ones I'm used to). I think it's overdone.
C.C.
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Laddi  |
Apr-06-03, 03:04 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Costas:I never really minded that stuff as you called it. It seemed a way to actually describe some of the problems long life would lead to. If lazrous lived thousands of years, he'd certainly be apt to have a relationship with a near relative.
The same applies to time travel - i don't believe heinlein himself would have done many of the things he wrote about, but i do believe he didn't have a conventional attitude toward human sexuality.
as far as young girls are concerned, unfortunately, the package is getting older each year. If I, a mature woman, have trouble deciding just how old young women are, i know men do. Some of the fault there lies in the parenting - let's face it, these young girls don't buy their own clothes, their parents do. So what do you do, blame society or try tto re-educate those who design and make clothes? laddi
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Constantinos Christidis |
Apr-07-03, 06:21 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
I read ye...after all, it's fiction! I've read even hairier ideas. (I recently wrote a story about a single mother fucking her only son and his girlfriend, can't see it getting published in Greece, nor another one I have an idea about, about an alternative history where the commies won the civil war in Greece.) Plus I guess RAH was making his characters humans, for without such flaws (that most of us share) they'd seem too cool, too perfect, inhuman.To turn the discussion on a different track: Would you form a "serious" relationship with a (decidedly) minor person? To answer that: No. Not serious, not any kind of relationship with any girl under the age of sixteen, eighteen preferably, because: a) I want to be able to discuss things with my partner, and frankly I don't think someone too young will be in a position to seriously discuss politics. b) Well, I want there to be some experience...too young is usually too dependent, too nagging, too tiresome and so forth. c) There have to be curves to hold onto!!! d) Young girls are for young boys, I always said. Rest of the male population should just look. There's plenty of women for everyone, and at the right age.
C.C.
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SailFree |
Apr-07-03, 12:13 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Hi, Constantinos C.,Gee, I can't even get Cheney's first name to go through! Here goes, just in case the net nanny ain't workin.' ##### Cheney --Al
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magas |
Apr-08-03, 02:45 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Maybe it's the sign-in thing...if you don't sign in but rather type you name for each message, then you could write Philip. K. #####.. (Why eliminate #####? It's a name damn it!)
C.C.
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SailFree |
Apr-08-03, 04:43 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Hi, Constantinos C.,I do that from my office computer, but still won't work for me. Sorry. Maybe the computer just likes you? Perhaps Andy has named it Minerva? --Al
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Constantinos Christidis |
Apr-09-03, 03:08 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
No, it doesn't work that way for me either. I guess it was just a glitch in the system.But if there's a Minerva I'd like her to become human like in - damn I forgot! - and then try to sweet-talk her into indecent acts. (If memory serves, Minerva was a curvy lady as a human.) How did she become human anyway, if at all? My memory seems to be failing lately. Too much new information crams out the old one? I wonder.
C.C.
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Constantinos Christidis |
Apr-11-03, 08:27 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Al,
And I guess the sexuality came from the body's hormones rather than the computer's memory...Can this ever be possible? I thought memory and thought processes were more than "software", that's it'd take some mighty molecular engineering to imprint memories in a brain, wouldn't it? I can buy information exchange from brain to machine, take those implants we've seen lately to make the blind see (we finally made it Jesus, old boy! Now all we gut to do is make fish-o-plenty) and those experiments I've seen in Greece with people controlling computers with their thought (though it takes a damn lot of concentration and it's actually reading brain activity with electrodes and matching it with a database, like when he thinks "left" we get X pattern of activity, so when we read X, that means the cursor goes left). I can see a human - machine fusion coming from that. But making sentient machines (if they ever come about) into humans...it'd be fun though if they were pretty girls.
C.C.
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SailFree |
Apr-11-03, 03:14 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Hi, Constantinos C.,Yes, it would be difficult, I am not sure if it will be possible, and it would be fun, I think. --Al
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Suzela  |
Apr-13-03, 09:57 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
Interestingly enough, The Door Into Summer never bothered me; maybe it was because at least he waited for Ricki to grow up. What I remember getting a bit ticked at, the first time I read it, was Time Enough for Love, when Lazarus sleeps with Maureen. It wasn't that I was offended as much as "Oh, come on! Now just stop it!" almost the way I feel now when my boys are pushing to see just how much they can get away with. It was more like, "Oh, RAH, you're better than that." Now, it doesn't really bother me--maybe because I've read the book about 20 times. And I'm older now; I was in high school when I first read TEFL. Actually, thinking about the concept of going back in time to sleep with a parent does smack a bit of the dirty little boy syndrome. And I also was less than impressed with the family incestual orgies in To Sail Beyond the Sunset.Hey, I just thought of something. I agree with Al's assessment of Rickie being thinly veiled Ginny. In Tramp Royale, he refers to his wife as "Ticky." A lover's nickname, maybe. Suze
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Constantinos Christidis |
Apr-15-03, 04:23 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: The Door Into Summer" |
I wonder if all that was necessary. I mean, I don't read Heinlein for the sex stuff or to have chills run down my spine by creepy stuff like incest. I read it for the even hairier ideas of time-paradoxes, standing up for one's ideals and stuff. I enjoyed Starship Troopers very much and do so each time I read it without there being sex. Was it a trick to sell?
C.C.
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